I am so sick of the religious right I could puke.....

[Colorado Sun]

First of Colorado I don't watch TV. I would rather read or play guitar. I didn't say anything about cops on TV....whatever that was. Anyway, I didn't take it as an attack. I was just giving my opinion, which I then get attacked for giving repeately as it is misunderstood by those who only read what they want to fit their point...

Second you obviously you or 3leg didn't read my post. I said I HATE BIG GOVERNENT. I never outlined you smart assy little "iron's TV Rules". My whole point goes back to parenting. I repeat, I don't like censorship or BIG Governmet. Parenting and involvement of children=GOOD. Rules=BAD!!! Got it!!!

Third, Calling my not liking the moral erosion of my country Hitleresque is about par for a liberal like yourself. If you think the Country is better off now than say 50 years ago you've lost you mind. If by parents being more involved in their kids life is Hitleresque you are one sick puppy. All was saying is that Parents NEED to be more involved!!!!! Less rules...more involved parents!!!! Got it!!!

I live in a neighborood where there is zero crime and most people are great! I don't have one neighbor that i don't like or who isn't involved and I see the kids and how they are. They are wonderful kids who are loved and supported. I don't see kids in my neighborhood acting like thugs and selling drugs and getting in trouble. It may be coincedence that most people here go to church.

Stop trying to make me out to be some looney because I think 'spirituality' and parental involvement is a great thing. Thats your answer. And as always with you I appreciate you not trying to assume too much or put words in my mouth.

Are you suggesting that you are not a fascist loony? - Just kidding....

I read your post as politicizing the issue and making it a red vs blue issue. I read your post as assuming that you had the answer and if you could just enforce it all would be solved. I don't think I am wrong in my analysis but we could debate it until the cows come home....

I do think you are wrong about America being better 50, 100, 200 or 229 years ago. A overly romanticized view of the past is pandemic in this country. I will not give up advances in science, medicine or social consciousness for a piece of an apple pie mom never baked.

-Sun

[Colorado Sun]

Why america sucked 50 years ago - Two Words - Air Conditioning!

-Sun

[LongDarkBlues]

??:shock:

I totally support giving teenagers easy access to - free copies of? - 'It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back' - the real travesty is how all kids get exposed to is the uber-capitalist side of rap music.

I'm more with Colorado in the absolute freedom camp. Personally I wouldn't have a problem at all with a hardcore porn channel on channel 9 and Nickelodeon on channel 10 - anyone with half a brain that does't want their kids to see it can just program the channel out of rotation - when the kid gets old enough to unlock it, they are old enough to see it.

I guess I could go on about this for a while, so I'll save you all that - in brief: I'm %100 for absolute freedom of expression - I don't think anyone should ever tell anyone else what they can and can't read/hear/see.

[Max Power]

??:shock:

I totally support giving teenagers easy access to - free copies of? - 'It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back' - the real travesty is how all kids get exposed to is the uber-capitalist side of rap music.

I'm more with Colorado in the absolute freedom camp. Personally I wouldn't have a problem at all with a hardcore porn channel on channel 9 and Nickelodeon on channel 10 - anyone with half a brain that does't want their kids to see it can just program the channel out of rotation - when the kid gets old enough to unlock it, they are old enough to see it.

I guess I could go on about this for a while, so I'll save you all that - in brief: I'm %100 for absolute freedom of expression - I don't think anyone should ever tell anyone else what they can and can't read/hear/see.

I thiunk kids can program their TVs by 4th grade.. which is probably not a good time to introduce porn to them,.. If their ever is a good time. Why is porn so good? Watching other people have sex..

I think with too much pornography you end up in a trailer court with blow up dolls until one day you end up snatching the neighbor lady in a drunken rage. Look, Ive been there. Its hard to turn back.

Seriously though.. pornography rapes the mind. IMO.

And if any of you lefties want a piece of me.. BRING IT ON !!!

I kid. I love you all and value your beliefs. I validate you.

[LongDarkBlues]

Do they have broadband in trailer courts?

[friendof]

!!!STORES DON'T ENFORCE THE RULES!!! Don't you get it?????? That's the Law already that kids aren't supposed to be able to buy that crap. I just said the little sticker doesn't work. Does anyone ever ID kids when they buy that stuff like they are supposed too. To call me 'big brother crazy' is the crazy because it's already the law and that's what you are saying too...

You would think the Founding Fathers are

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, is all I'm saying. (and whether you outlined a plan for censorship or not, you certianly suggest one is needed so I jumped to no conclusions). For a long time NO ONE enforced cigarette ID requirements, but you up those fines a little and a lot of stores started to check. Are there still ones that don't? Of course... increase fines again! I think the same can be done with the PA stickers (or rater R movies, whatever).

To others:

I disagree that there should be no cencorship. Passive censorship, like rating systems and age requiements, seems very reasonable to me. In fact, it gives parents more leeway to raise their kids free of government interference because it keeps stores/theatres from parenting by allowing any aged child to see a NC-17 movie that their parents do not want them to see. Kids are notoriously sneaky... rating systems, etc., which are a form of censorship, give parents more control (same with radio broadcasts). I also think failing to have any form of passive censorship does the greatest harm to kids with bad/absent/inattentive parents.

As for parenting class, I actually was thinking more of a medical-related class with perhaps some staticics... like, "hey, don't shake the baby" or "dude, babies shouldn't sleep on their stomachs" with a "um... parents who beat their kids are more likely to have kids who beat their own kids one day" thrown in. And in no way did I ever suggest that such a class should be required or that they should include subjective "values." But perhaps widely available classes would be nice (at the hospital, at high schools, etc etc etc.). So, no, not fascism... just free information.

[El Santo]

whoa....just stumbled upon this thread again....big things...

i hate pretty much all rap music...bar none. I wish that it would be removed from this earth...under its own accord/mis-steps. Do i think that we as a country should remove it forcefully via cencorship?? Maybe not. It wouldn't really be kosher if we did....but I can't say I'd be heartbroken.

as i mentioned before....sure...it isn't good for little kids to see porn/violence/offensive language....but there's just as big a problem with plain ol' stupid TV.

I might also add for the record....

I have memories of watching COPS on tv...every saturday...with my grandpa...when i was probably under 8 years old. I still watch it to this day. It's the only show that I actually get rowdy while I watch. I turned out fine...because I knew naturally that the kind of behavior displayed on that show is improper.

BUT

i also think that NOT seeing that can be detrimental to people as well. I think while people should be allowed to live in peace and harmony...they should do their best to not be naive as far as whats out there. My girlfriend and her sister werent allowed to watch "the simpsons"...."married with children"....or R rated movies until they were in their early teens.
I remember seeing "Bugsy"...an R rated gangster movie when it was in the theaters....i was with my dad....and was no older than 9 at the time.

my girlfriend used to fight with her parents....rebel in any way possible(is fine now)...and her sister did the same thing....and had a kid at 22 with a guy that is now out of the picture...and has no direction.

I'm not trying to get on a high horse or anything....but I NEVER talked back to my parents....haven ever used any kind of drugs that were not scripted to me by a doctor....and have never been in trouble with the law......i only had one detention in high school....and was pissed. I had my first sip of alchohol at age 6.....and my dad told me from age 14 on...that i can drink as much as I want...as long as I do it in his house. currently....i don't drink....and have only been drunk once in my life.

again.....I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else....but the fact is...it SHOULD have happened the other way around in theory.

It all comes down to the way things are presented to kids. if NOTHING is said after/before/during their first experiences with drugs/sex/alchohol/violence/language.....they view it however they want. Which, can in some cases still turn out ok.

it is harder nowadays however....to guage when children will have these experiences.....the internet...TV...music....all those things can expose a child to bad things....but we can never really be sure WHEN it will happen. Shit....a 6 year old could stumble upon porno on the internet....even by accident. Before this was available....it was a little easier to figure out when to have..."the talk". Now....we have no idea.

In retrospect....I have not proven much at all. If anything....I've probably only given cannon fodder to someone else....or leverage they can use against me when I run for dictator.

[Max Power]

We had to watch a video about shaking babies at the Hospital before the kid could go home with us.. its standard op.. and not the staff eyeballing me too much.. haha.

[ironman]

Dear Liberal Pot smokers ,

We will call this "Ironman's post for Dummies". Since the liberals can't seem to read a post I make without assuming and jumping to conclusions I will go paragraph by paragraph and explain what I said and what I meant. I really hate having to over explain everything to you guys. But if I don't I might be Hitleresque!!! And no SUN I didn't appreciate the Hitleresque comment. I think you should take a deep breath and try to re-read a post and understand a persons point of view before labeling.

Here's what I said that you took and ran with called my idea's Hitleresque and Big Brother then Norman Rockwell...Whewww what a shift of the winds that was.

if peopel can't parent responsibly or media can't act responsibly THEY will continue to try to make rules.

I didn't say i want them to make rules. I simply pointed out thay Tipper Gore will try to make rules and Government will try to make rules if people can't act resposibly. Ummm...pretty obvious not Hitleresque.

I would say that if more people had a sprituality in their live they would have more fulfillment and not act so irresponsibly.

What's wrong with having a God and being filled with love and joy from a spiritual relationship with God???? If you have believe in Jesus Christ as the Saviour you will live forever. That's the basic Christian belief. That's all you have to know. Man has confused religion to the point it turns people off, including me. I pray a few times a day and attend church some and read my Bible and think for myself. I am not saying everyone go to Church every Sunday or you'll burn in HELL!!! Nothing like that at all. I was just simply pointing out that people have moved away from 'spirituality' and I think it HAS had an impact on our culture for the worse.

Having a belief is a wonderfully FREE expression. I have freedom from sin and a freedom from this world. You want to talk Freedom talk to God. Pray. That's freedom! Sprirituality is good for the soul and keeps a man grounded.
[You missunderstand that fear and faith can't reside in the same place. Please don't call my love for God and belief Hitleresque too]

Not saying religion...say sprituality. I would say most people went to church 50 years ago. Now they don't...you do the math.

People aren't the same as they used to be. Technology has changed to world into a microwave mentality. Everything is now, now, now and more, more, more. I just think people get caught up in stuff instead of what matters most in life, God and Family. Our country WAS founded on Judeo-Christian Principles and the whole separation bit is so there is freedom of and from religion. I don't care if you don't beleive or don't go to Church. That is just a fact.
[Not very Hitleresque becuase I am not saying you must go to church or else. I am not lining anyone up in a camp for religious beliefs. ]


[quote="ironman']I don't like censorship but MOST rap music is vile trash and should be strongly censored.I don't mean with a label that says "PARENTAL ADVISORY'. Most parents never see that LABEL. There is NO reason a teen should be listening to songs with graphic lyrics about sex and violence and drugs. I am not talking about "Louie Louie" stuff either. If you have heard David Banner or Ludchris you know what I am talking about. From an art standpoint it's audio pornagraphy. A teen can't walk into a video rental store and grab a porn movie can they? I realize they can access it on the internet and there are ways to stop that but it all comes back to being a parent and a role model you kids can look up to immulate. You do drugs...your kids will do drugs too. Pretty simple. [/quote]

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/d ... ntID=13870 more reading on the subject if you care.

The Government...ummm...Tipper made the little stickers that are supposed to "strongly Censor" who can buy and who can't. I am not saying censorship in that the G'ment should arrest these thugs or stop them from making records. I am saying that they should crackdown on selling trash to kids. Sorry if that is too Big Brother that I don't want kids under 18 being to buy porn or rap that has porn lyrics.

So, the Government whole job is to protect it citizens. I want my kids protected from porn...audio or video. I HATE big Government more than taxes (wait they are same) but this is hilarious that Liberals are crying over this when they support killing babies and letting serial killers live.

ummm...this was pretty clear and 3leg et al. went over board on this. I am simply staing the obvious. I want kids protected from porn and violence and whatever. I am not saying that I want the Government o intercede and play Big Brother and break down doors if you watch a dirty movie. I am saying that they are trying to do what's right but it's all for not without good solid parenting...

So, I hope this wiil make more sense now that I have spent more time on this explaining myself as I regulary have to do. I will refrain from posting anymore. I have decided it's not worth the hassle or headache trying to explain simple American concepts to people who don't care and want to jump to conclusions and impugne me and call me Hitleresque. I am clearly an outsider and tired of trying to explain that America is not in good moral shape and getting bashed for it. It might be different if I wasn't the lone conservative and you guys would be a little more willing to understand and NOT jump to conclusions, such as all the "are you suggesting..." questions. I won't go away totally or make some half-hearted attempt to leave. I just won't post under this forum of politics. I need to stick to music only here. I have no hard feelings for anyone it's just not worth my time anymore. I spend too much time trying to re-explain to you guys because you over-react to everything I say and brand me as some bible thumping neo-con.

For the record Jesse is right that living a sheltered life and NOT being educated by the dangers are as bad as being fully exposed to them.

Enjoy and Good Night!

Sincerely,

Iron

[El Santo]

I actually agree with Iron in that I believe that America is, in my eyes....in sub-par moral shape. Take that for what its worth. I'm not sure that I can pinpoint where things went wrong....and I DONT believe that most people in the 50's were just and true...(my dad's told me plenty of stories of, lets say past experience.)

Does it have something to do with the declining religious upbringing/lifestyle that was more popular in prior decades? I'm not so sure about that. It might have something to do with it, but I don't think it has something to do with god per se, but more with the values that are given in the bible. I don't think that god has to be in one's life at all to be a well-to-do person. I actually have never attended church...and was not raised that way by any means....but I could name you a hundred church-going kids that knocked boots with their boy/girl in the back of their car at 16. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other is what I'm saying.

If the belief of god, and the following of the teachings of the bible get you to where you want to be....thats fine by me. Whatever it takes to get you there. As long as your living your life to its fullest, are happy with yourself, and doing your best to not hurt others, your ok.

You can try to draw certain conclusions about people based on their beliefs, upbringing, lifestyle, but theres always a largre amount of them that go against the normalities of a formula. People will always surprise you.

hey...the only religious text that I've ever completed reading is the soothing, calming Bhuddist scripture, the Tao Te Ching. Yet....mention certain things in my presence....the beastie boys and you'll hear a tirade that contains no less than 47 expletives. Go figure....I was supposed to be a calm person after reading that stuff.

[Nortwoods]

So, I hope this wiil make more sense now that I have spent more time on this explaining myself as I regulary have to do. I will refrain from posting anymore. I have decided it's not worth the hassle or headache trying to explain simple American concepts to people who don't care and want to jump to conclusions and impugne me and call me Hitleresque.

We go through this like every other week. Your views are entirely respected and level headed. So Sun called you Hitleresque. You called me a potsmoker. Logic would say, if you are not Hitleresque, I do not smoke teh grass. We have found a truth.

I still don't agree with you. This is why: You say that you live in a great neighborhood, where everyone gets along, and goes to church. I referred to this as Rockwellesque. It is. It's the Leave it to Beaver neighborhood ideal. This is great, seriously, if that's what you're striving for, perfect. Where is this all this moral decay evidencing itself to you? Is it really the non religious lefties? You take absolute worst case scenarios, and cast them as norms. I lived in South Minneapolis for years. In, what many would refer to as a 'cosmopolitan' neighborhood. Many would refer to it as simply the 'hood. This was a wonderful place to live. The diversity of culture/cuisine/religion you name it was phenomenal. A simple drive by, would intimate this as a neighborhood with the dreaded rap music, not much more. It's just not true, any more than Columbine was started by Marilyn Manson. That's my only point. America has always had incredible struggling neighborhoods. We've always strived for better. Everybody. When you look beyond the golden hue of Cul de Sac Parkway; it helps to see the inherent good, not just the moral decay. We're only breaking down as far as we can cast the stone.

[Colorado Sun]

........and I will just thank you for spelling "impugn" correctly.

Goebbelsesque?

-Sun

[Wordman]

I find it amazing that my post calling for responsible parenting gets drug in as some sort of left wing loonyism

I also find it amazing that anyne thinks the country was a better place to be 50 years ago.

Yeah, if you are a fat-assed white guy longing for the good ol' days when them uppity darkies and womens knew their place...an' there was less of them spics here and a man was a man and his little woman was his prized possesion...

God...

There were seperate drinking fountains for whites and blacks 50 years ago, for Chrissake!!!!

I think that if you'll check with someone other than a white male, you'll find that 50 years ago things were not as good as they are now.

In many states women couldn't own property... and were as good as property.

American Indians were shoved onto reservations and left to starve or die with no aid.

There was no public welfare.

Single mothers were considered little better than prostitutes.

Children died of abuse and few of their abusers were prosecuted (forensics wasn't as good back then.)

In other parts of the world, viruses slaughtered millions, and there were local and tribal wars.

The very wealthy had it good, and a guy just out of the military who had gone in poor (like my dad, who was a Tennessee hillbilly) had a chance to make a better life. But there was still a strong class divide and if you didn't belong to the upper class, your options were limited.

People starved and died here in the US in the winters. There was no air conditioning and many died during the summer. I still remember the polio epidemics... and other problems.

There was no such thing as rape back then -- well, there WAS but if a woman was raped the assumption would be that they were inviting it by their actions.

Molestation of children was hushed up. Do a bit of reading and you will be appalled at how many women of that generation were molested and kept it quiet and let the abuse continue because if it was found out they (not their molestor) would be ostracized (he would be punished, but the attitude was that they "let" it happen.)

Alcoholism and drug abuse was rampant (read "Valley of the Dolls" sometime for a not-uncommon picture of the tired and bored and drug-abusing middle class woman. I knew of several, personally, though my mom never abused drugs.)

People went to church not because they believed but because if they didn't they wouldn't have a chance at jobs, at buying a house, etc, etc.

In school, you sat silent for the entire hour of class. If you spoke up or got up or it was thought you were annyoing someone, you were taken out of class and taken to the principal's office and spanked.

Nonwhites often got beaten up.

It wasn't unusal to see a kid with a bruise from being whipped or slapped by a parent... or a wife with a black eye.

Then there's the economic stuff...

The internet and educational opportunities open to EVERYONE are far superior to those fifty years ago...

There is a rip in the social fabric that needs mending, I'll grant you that.

But this longing for the "good old days", especially by people that didn't live through them is laughable...

[ironman]

I hate to even post but this is crazy! You guys have lost it...

This is my point exactly!!! This is exactly why you guys suck!!! Obviously Ray did't read where all I was doing was agreeing that responsible parenting went a long way and IT (responsible parenting) was much better 50 years ago. That is it and that rap music is bad and so is porn. That was my point. Nothing more. Do explicit lyrics and porn need to be closer enforced so kids can't buy them? YES. Some call that censorship.

Third, Calling my not liking the moral erosion of my country Hitleresque is about par for a liberal like yourself. If you think the Country is better off now than say 50 years ago you've lost you mind. If by parents being more involved in their kids life is Hitleresque you are one sick puppy. All was saying is that Parents NEED to be more involved!!!!! Less rules...more involved parents!!!! Got it!!!

In this quote I am clearly saying that the country is better off 50 years ago in the context of responsible parenting, not civil rights.

That and the jumping to conclusions and over a general statement about how parents were more involved and you clowns go nuts and call me names and generalize me and put words in my mouth.. Then the all mighty Weaver decides to go on a line item of public ills 50 years ago...save it! It was a general statement about parenting and sprituality not civil rights.


Man, you guys are a bunch of nervous puppies that piss on yourself when I say that most parents today are doing a lousy job compared to 50 years ago. I mean how the hell do you bring in civil rights?!?!!?


Then I get so many freaking darts from the rest of you liberal goofs for what I say I couldn't possibly ever be concise enough to satisfy your "are you suggesting..." thoughts. And for the last time...HELL NO I'M NOT SUGGESTING ANYMORE THAN I SAY.

Obviously, I say too much and guys are so freaking paranoid that you say I sound like a "terrorist" or "Hitleresque". I am not sure I could be called much worse. I don't remeber ever calling anyone a name excpet when I told Raymone he "sounded like freaking jerk" in an example to prove a point to him saying that my defense of soldiers sounded like a terrorist. of course that too was misunderstood that i used the name calling for "dramatization" to prove a point and he got is depends in a wad.

I have to breakdown every thing I say becuase you all look for hidden agenda or meaning like your Joe McCarthy. Newsflash to all the Joe's: Not all people who play guitar are commies!

This is not fun or enjoyable anymore. I can't have an open disscussion with friends here. I guess I would have to have friends first who didn't over-react and act like assholes everytime I post something they didn't fully read, understand or like. If you think I am talking about you...I am.


Good Riddance!

[LongDarkBlues]

I think you meant "rap music is great and so is porn"